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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Commie Mike wrote:
Welcome to the forum Bolt 308! The V12s are designed for the hotter loads but will run just about anything with a little refinement and breaking in. Stay away from cheap birdshot like Win. Universal. Ammo like that is really designed for PA shotguns. Whether or not you can get it to run that stuff is besides the point. Would you ever put your life on the line with garbage ammo? Heck no! I love running 3" shells but it's really not necessary unless you want to reach out and touch someone. You would be suprised with the accuracy with 3" Win slugs at 100 yards.In my mags that are loaded I either have Sellier&Bellot or Suprema Buckshot from Wally World. My guns have never had a problem with any buckshot. I would stay away from low recoil rounds for HD. I did buy some Rio reduced recoil slugs once to play with and had a few problems in one of my V12s. If you want birdshot buy some of the hotter game loads. To save money to play with is a different story. These guns are addictive. See if your V12 will cycle Federal Bulk, Suprema and Winchester for plinking and chasing milk jugs around the back 40. Have fun but don't ever cut corners on protecting your family and know the limitations of your shotgun.


+1 if the guns gonna run anything reliably I would prefer it to be defensive loads rather than the cheapest, low powered birdshot. I think the "reliability issues" of the S-12/V-12 are blown out of proportion by people expecting them to run the crappiest loads while not beating itself to death with 3" magnum loads, thats an unreasonable expectation when youre talking semi auto shotguns. Many other "high quality" semi autos (remington 1100, mossberg 930, benelli, beretta etc.) will not cycle all loads reliably. Its really a compromise, dead reliable with defense loads + failures with light loads..or reliable with light loads but beats the gun to death with defense loads..take your pick. These shotguns were designed and intended to be used for hunting and defense.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:55 pm 
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vepr wrote:
Commie Mike wrote:
Welcome to the forum Bolt 308! The V12s are designed for the hotter loads but will run just about anything with a little refinement and breaking in. Stay away from cheap birdshot like Win. Universal. Ammo like that is really designed for PA shotguns. Whether or not you can get it to run that stuff is besides the point. Would you ever put your life on the line with garbage ammo? Heck no! I love running 3" shells but it's really not necessary unless you want to reach out and touch someone. You would be suprised with the accuracy with 3" Win slugs at 100 yards.In my mags that are loaded I either have Sellier&Bellot or Suprema Buckshot from Wally World. My guns have never had a problem with any buckshot. I would stay away from low recoil rounds for HD. I did buy some Rio reduced recoil slugs once to play with and had a few problems in one of my V12s. If you want birdshot buy some of the hotter game loads. To save money to play with is a different story. These guns are addictive. See if your V12 will cycle Federal Bulk, Suprema and Winchester for plinking and chasing milk jugs around the back 40. Have fun but don't ever cut corners on protecting your family and know the limitations of your shotgun.


+1 if the guns gonna run anything reliably I would prefer it to be defensive loads rather than the cheapest, low powered birdshot. I think the "reliability issues" of the S-12/V-12 are blown out of proportion by people expecting them to run the crappiest loads while not beating itself to death with 3" magnum loads, thats an unreasonable expectation when youre talking semi auto shotguns. Many other "high quality" semi autos (remington 1100, mossberg 930, benelli, beretta etc.) will not cycle all loads reliably. Its really a compromise, dead reliable with defense loads + failures with light loads..or reliable with light loads but beats the gun to death with defense loads..take your pick. These shotguns were designed and intended to be used for hunting and defense.


Adjustable gas system would solve that problem for 90% of use cases.

Or... just buy more guns. :D


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:10 pm 
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vepr wrote:
+1 if the guns gonna run anything reliably I would prefer it to be defensive loads rather than the cheapest, low powered birdshot. I think the "reliability issues" of the S-12/V-12 are blown out of proportion by people expecting them to run the crappiest loads while not beating itself to death with 3" magnum loads, thats an unreasonable expectation when youre talking semi auto shotguns. Many other "high quality" semi autos (remington 1100, mossberg 930, benelli, beretta etc.) will not cycle all loads reliably. Its really a compromise, dead reliable with defense loads + failures with light loads..or reliable with light loads but beats the gun to death with defense loads..take your pick. These shotguns were designed and intended to be used for hunting and defense.

+1 to data

I addressed this in the ammo thread. Vepr's claim that you should just optimise for hot loads is a crummy argument for a couple of reasons. 1: quite a lot of defensive ammo is very weak. 2: There is absolutely no reason why this particular gun can't run both light and heavy loads for a long long time with no damage to itself. So the notion that you have to pick and should be happy with only running the hot stuff is very much a false dichotomy. You can have both. 2a: no one has ever come up with an explanation for an way that a gun that only runs about 40% of the common ammo you might encounter is better or more useful than one which reliably runs 95% + of the common ammo spectrum. Reliable with more ammo is better than reliable with less ammo. Period. No way around that.

Further, all the manufacturers advertise and claim they should run with the weak stuff.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:46 am 
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I agree with you and data, it would be optimal to run reliably with light and heavy loads and yes a adjustable gas system (specifically a self adjusting tappet system like GunFun has described in the past) would solve alot of the reliability issues experienced with light loads while safely running heavier loads. Maybe Ive been spoiled but all the S-12/V-12's (unconverted, sgl factory pistol gripped, V-12 folders) Ive fired have ran federal bulkpack from walmart reliably right out of the box with no mods, Id say thats pretty damn good. Going much lighter than that and youre getting more into a competition niche realm which the S-12/V-12 wasnt originally designed for. The problem I believe is that once the S-12's gained traction and competitors realized the speed benifits of a detachable box mag they started pushing the envelope on how light of a load can they run, some going well outside of what could be reasonably expected as designed, and without a aftermarket solution.

We see this in all types of fire arms and especially in competition, the competition guys are famous for downloading ammunition for better hit probability/recoil management/speed back on target. Also you have guys that try and run cci colibri (primer only, no powder) in their 10/22 and say the 10/22 is junk cause it wouldnt run a round that was designed to be loaded manually..service rifle AR competitors run 90gr .556 rounds that have an oal that wont allow the round to physically fit in a AR magazine and basically use the AR like a bolt action, because the abnormally heavy for caliber projectile allows more precision at longer range stages (talk about pushing the limits lol)

True there are low powered/low recoil defensive loads out there for sure, but at this time I wouldnt trust them in any semi auto regardless of manufacturer. I would only trust those loads in a pump gun/lever action/sxs etc..

It just seems like the kalasnikov based shotguns recieve a unproportional amount of criticism for not being able to run any and all loads, when none (to my knowledge) of the various semis will achieve that in stock form if at all. Could Izmash/Molot redesign them with VERY large ports and incorporate a auto adjust regulator to cut gas to optimal amounts? Im sure they could..but they havent and if they did how much would it cost? As currently designed I have yet to see (personally) a S-12/V-12 that would not run decently powerfull loads that would be commonly used for hunting game or self defense (not including reduced recoil loads).


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:43 am 
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That's reasonable. Especially the sentiment that these get crap for not running everything, when they run stuff most of the semis out there won't run either, and they actually have a broader window of function.

I suppose I should put numbers on what I am saying. Specifically, I am stating that S12 V12 and K12 ought to be able to run 3 dram and up without compromising durability or reliability with the hottest loads. Some will be able to edge toward 2.75 dram stuff if they are really smooth. There's no good excuse not to have that level of reliability. It should run 3 dram with the limpest of wrists/shoulders all day long. These can do so, and it makes them way more versatile than most of the semis out there, which tend to be tuned to either run hot or mild, but not both.

I think part of the problem has always been that people don't pay attention to what their ammo is. for example "Vepr" just said his both run "federal bulk pack". I am sure he knows what he is buying, but if someone new reads that, or he tells a friend with a new gun to pick that up for his new vepr, It seems to be about 50/50 that he will get the federal bulk pack of 2 3/4 dram or lighter stuff, insted of the 3 or 3 1/4 dr eq stuff. Huge difference, but we are sloppy with what we say, and that is what leads to the experiences that make people rage quit on kalashnikov shotguns. go to one match where you just bought 500 rounds of the wrong fuel, and you just leave mad and ready to buy a $35 kit which won't change the fact that you are buying the wrong ammo, and you just put a hammer shaped like a trapezoid in the gun.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:16 am 
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GunFun wrote:
That's reasonable. Especially the sentiment that these get crap for not running everything, when they run stuff most of the semis out there won't run either, and they actually have a broader window of function.

I suppose I should put numbers on what I am saying. Specifically, I am stating that S12 V12 and K12 ought to be able to run 3 dram and up without compromising durability or reliability with the hottest loads. Some will be able to edge toward 2.75 dram stuff if they are really smooth. There's no good excuse not to have that level of reliability. It should run 3 dram with the limpest of wrists/shoulders all day long. These can do so, and it makes them way more versatile than most of the semis out there, which tend to be tuned to either run hot or mild, but not both.

I think part of the problem has always been that people don't pay attention to what their ammo is. for example "Vepr" just said his both run "federal bulk pack". I am sure he knows what he is buying, but if someone new reads that, or he tells a friend with a new gun to pick that up for his new vepr, It seems to be about 50/50 that he will get the federal bulk pack of 2 3/4 dram or lighter stuff, insted of the 3 or 3 1/4 dr eq stuff. Huge difference, but we are sloppy with what we say, and that is what leads to the experiences that make people rage quit on kalashnikov shotguns. go to one match where you just bought 500 rounds of the wrong fuel, and you just leave mad and ready to buy a $35 kit which won't change the fact that you are buying the wrong ammo, and you just put a hammer shaped like a trapezoid in the gun.


Trapezoid shaped hammer :lol:

I know a guy who bought like 1000rnds of cci colibri .22 for his 10/22 cause it was cheap. And one day he's like "man my 10/22 doesnt cycle worth a damn, its like a bolt action". I asked him what ammo he was running and he told me he bought 1000rnds of cci colibri :| I told him that ammo doesnt even have powder lol, the bullet is propelled by the primer only (at very low velocity) and is intended to be manually cycled. Basically a low noise, super low velocity, training round. Thats great for teaching a young child to shoot a bolt action but it wont cycle a semi auto.

Yes to be specific, 3 dram federal bulk pack in the 100rnd boxes have run for the most part reliably in every factory stock, out of the box S-12/V-12 that I have personally fired. I have not attempted to fire bulkpack loads less than 3 dram. "Low recoil" defensive buckshot was not reliable in these same guns (cant give specific % of failures, it was enough to dismiss further use though). Full power buckshot (wolf, remington green box, federal le flight control, winchester military) not labeled as "low" or "reduced recoil" have all run nearly 100% in all S-12/V-12's I have fired personally as well as various slug loads (reminton slugger, brenneke K.O. etc..).


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:23 pm 
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vepr wrote:
GunFun wrote:
That's reasonable. Especially the sentiment that these get crap for not running everything, when they run stuff most of the semis out there won't run either, and they actually have a broader window of function.

I suppose I should put numbers on what I am saying. Specifically, I am stating that S12 V12 and K12 ought to be able to run 3 dram and up without compromising durability or reliability with the hottest loads. Some will be able to edge toward 2.75 dram stuff if they are really smooth. There's no good excuse not to have that level of reliability. It should run 3 dram with the limpest of wrists/shoulders all day long. These can do so, and it makes them way more versatile than most of the semis out there, which tend to be tuned to either run hot or mild, but not both.

I think part of the problem has always been that people don't pay attention to what their ammo is. for example "Vepr" just said his both run "federal bulk pack". I am sure he knows what he is buying, but if someone new reads that, or he tells a friend with a new gun to pick that up for his new vepr, It seems to be about 50/50 that he will get the federal bulk pack of 2 3/4 dram or lighter stuff, insted of the 3 or 3 1/4 dr eq stuff. Huge difference, but we are sloppy with what we say, and that is what leads to the experiences that make people rage quit on kalashnikov shotguns. go to one match where you just bought 500 rounds of the wrong fuel, and you just leave mad and ready to buy a $35 kit which won't change the fact that you are buying the wrong ammo, and you just put a hammer shaped like a trapezoid in the gun.


Trapezoid shaped hammer :lol:

I know a guy who bought like 1000rnds of cci colibri .22 for his 10/22 cause it was cheap. And one day he's like "man my 10/22 doesnt cycle worth a damn, its like a bolt action". I asked him what ammo he was running and he told me he bought 1000rnds of cci colibri :| I told him that ammo doesnt even have powder lol, the bullet is propelled by the primer only (at very low velocity) and is intended to be manually cycled. Basically a low noise, super low velocity, training round. Thats great for teaching a young child to shoot a bolt action but it wont cycle a semi auto.

Yes to be specific, 3 dram federal bulk pack in the 100rnd boxes have run for the most part reliably in every factory stock, out of the box S-12/V-12 that I have personally fired. I have not attempted to fire bulkpack loads less than 3 dram. "Low recoil" defensive buckshot was not reliable in these same guns (cant give specific % of failures, it was enough to dismiss further use though). Full power buckshot (wolf, remington green box, federal le flight control, winchester military) not labeled as "low" or "reduced recoil" have all run nearly 100% in all S-12/V-12's I have fired personally as well as various slug loads (reminton slugger, brenneke K.O. etc..).



I've seen a fair amount of low recoil buckshot which wouldn't even measure 2.5 dram equivalent.-- and that is if the stuff goes as hot as it is claimed on the labels, which I doubt.
It's weird to me that people who shoot at clays with 3 dram ish birdshot somehow think an ounce (8 00b pellets) moving at ~1100 FPS is some brutal world wrecker, because it says tactical, or is an item sold to cops or soldiers somewhere.

Dude- your shell is less potent than the one I use to poke holes in quail! I don' think you need to worry so much about recoil.

That and the recent popular fixation with minishells which don't cycle reliably in any gun. I have a couple technical videos on reloading shotshells. Basically trouble shooting if your shells ain't coming out right. In the last year or so, maybe 1/4 of the questions have been about 'but can I use this to make mini shells'.
Image

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shotguns, some gunsmithing, reloading, fabrication, knife making, etc.

I'm a firearms/NFA attorney in Wa. Let's combine business, pleasure, and stamps.

http://www.youtube.com/user/armaggedonite


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